Curse

seven · Aug 08, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03

we must also take into consideration that even though the skills for the non-core classes
will not be added upon, that doesn't mean those existing skills cannot change.

-------

as new class combinations and skill combinations arrive, it is inevitable that people will find some unforseen "trick" builds that wasn't supposed to be used in its original purpose or context. and as with such, the nerf and buff sticks will be used correspondingly.

sometimes, all it takes is a just a little enegy cost reduction, or a simple recharge decrease to turn a previsouly unused and unappreciated skill into a skill that an entire build can be based upon. and if one thing is sure to continue, skill balancing is one of them; especially with their interactions will the new skills.

and even if it happened during the beta tests, some existing skills could also change dramatically as well. compare the beta and present shadow refuge for instance. same name, completely different skills.

Thallandor · Aug 08, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

As many have mentioned here, there wont be any content for chapter specific classes, which bring a interesting point that for someone that plays all chapters of GW, having and playing the core classes gives you the most money worth since with each new chapter release there will always be new content (armour,skill,weapon skins) which we wont see for any of the chapter specific classes. Though it may sound like that the core classes maybe over powered as each chapter progresses, remember that there are some skills that are repeated (which may be a boost also in terms of countering recharge) and stats for weapons and armours remain the same. But there is definetly an strong advantage for those who choose to play the core classes over the chapter specific ones as GW progess seening how assassins are being screwed over in both Factions and soon to be released Nightfall.

Some food for though.

carbajac · Aug 08, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Talking about the Ritualists, I'm sure (at least I'd hope) ANet is concerned about the fact that the most used build (and arguably the only real effective build) for Ritualists is the Ritual Lord spirit build. They don't like when only one build is used. Something is cooking for the Ritualists I think. Either a reworking of Restoration and Channeling or a nerf of Ritual Lord, the latter of which would destroy the use of the Ritualist.

But yeah, I remember hearing that the Assassin and Ritualists were not going to be supported with new armors (not positive about new skills) and such for future chapters. Factions armor is all you get.

GerryHYH · Aug 08, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Aye, unlikely for new skills, armour for Assassins and Rit, but I'm sure there will be new weapons for them. Well, new skins for weapons...

Kinda disappointed with ANET for not supporting Sins and Rit...

Glasswalker · Aug 08, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

They said from the very beginning of Factions that this is how it would be. You can't be too disappointed with them.

Amen to the comments about skill changes though. New lands, new classes, new balance of power. I can't imagine they will 'nerf' Ritual Lord as it isn't overpowered or broken, it's just overplayed. I would say it's going way to far to suggest it's the only playable build, but it is a good one. Who wants free chips when you can get free pie and chips? Make a couple of the other Elites a bit more powerful, and you will see them used.

GloryFox · Aug 08, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

posted by Alex Weekes
Just like your Prophecies characters were able to travel to Cantha and experience factions content, your Prophecies and Factions characters will be able to cross over to the next campaign. As long as you link your accounts, every campaign will bring you new content for all of you characters.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...41#post1649941

Guild Wars is a game that evolves with the demands of the players. Look how PvP was introduced after the game release. Nothing is truly set in stone. As you can see new content for all of your characters includes Assassins and Ritualists. In the interview Alex had a while back he may have meant by 6 core classes and 2 new ones in each chapter can be interpreted in different ways.

Nightfall class selections for characters made in Elona could be the 6 core plus Paragon and Dervish. This is one way to interpret what Anet was intending to do. However we have it now said that all classes will get new content. It would be easy for a skills vendor to arrive in Elona with SIN and RIT skills and you can easily place 10 more Bosses anywhere on the map for Elite skill capping without introducing the entire class as a start able option. Either way we will find out soon enough what ANET will do on the situation.

Thom · Aug 08, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

GloryFox:
Don't get your hopes up, this could simply mean that you can bring any existing character to the new continent and do the missions. Content is much broader than skills and weapons.

Ritualists were largely a failed concept from a PvP perspective and assassins were a failed concept from a PvE perspective. Both are border-line unplayable in any serious sense and should perhaps be forgotten. I enjoy playing my ritualist, but I'm not sure Anet should add skills to try to revive the class-- and they definitely should add those skills to an expansion.

Hella Good · Aug 08, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Guild Wars is a game that evolves with the demands of the players. Look how PvP was introduced after the game release. Nothing is truly set in stone. As you can see new content for all of your characters includes Assassins and Ritualists. In the interview Alex had a while back he may have meant by 6 core classes and 2 new ones in each chapter can be interpreted in different ways.

Nightfall class selections for characters made in Elona could be the 6 core plus Paragon and Dervish. This is one way to interpret what Anet was intending to do. However we have it now said that all classes will get new content. It would be easy for a skills vendor to arrive in Elona with SIN and RIT skills and you can easily place 10 more Bosses anywhere on the map for Elite skill capping without introducing the entire class as a start able option. Either way we will find out soon enough what ANET will do on the situation.

As Thom pointed out, you are reading too much into this statement. We already knew there will be new CONTENT for Rit/Sins in Nightfall but we also know there WON'T be any new SKILLS. If you expect, Rit/Sin bosses in Nightfall, you are in for a big big surprise.

One of the biggest problems of mankind is reading into words what is not there...

samcobra · Aug 08, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

They said from the very beginning of Factions that this is how it would be. You can't be too disappointed with them.

Amen to the comments about skill changes though. New lands, new classes, new balance of power. I can't imagine they will 'nerf' Ritual Lord as it isn't overpowered or broken, it's just overplayed. I would say it's going way to far to suggest it's the only playable build, but it is a good one. Who wants free chips when you can get free pie and chips? Make a couple of the other Elites a bit more powerful, and you will see them used.

ArenaNet does not nerf builds that are overused. For a perfect example, take a look at IWAY. Its been overused for months, but arenanet has not yet done anything to distinctly nerf them.

However, previous 'buffs' for underpowered attributes have all been for core classes. You can probably expect more and different abilities added to those classes.

As for the new classes, however, I think ANet has adopted a policy of setting them out to dry and leaving them. Most likely, the independent programmers that Jeff Strain spoke about, those not dedicated to any specific chapter, will be the ones to implement changes for the continent-specific classes. However, if the Guild Wars community keeps them occupied with other things, such as a desire for an auction house, etc., then those devs will have to prioritize, and adding content for the old classes can fall quite low on the priority ladder.

GloryFox · Aug 08, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

posted by Thom
Ritualists were largely a failed concept from a PvP perspective and assassins were a failed concept from a PvE perspective. Both are border-line unplayable in any serious sense and should perhaps be forgotten. I enjoy playing my ritualist, but I'm not sure Anet should add skills to try to revive the class-- and they definitely should add those skills to an expansion.

Well we have different opinions as to what is a failed concept. I find the Ritualist as a Jack of All trades class, as they can fit any role needed when nothing else fits the bill. As for the assassin, I use it for PvE and found it to be a better class suited for Prophecies then Factions. Don’t get me wrong it’s a great class. It just can’t deal with the Death Nova effects well. I find both the RIT and SIN as successful classes for thier roles.

Guardian of the Light · Aug 08, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I made a bet with my friends

If there are rit or assassin skills in nightfall I have to give 2 of them each 1k

If there are no rit or assassin skills in nightfall I get 1k from each of them.

I am confident that I'll get 2k

Quote:

ArenaNet does not nerf builds that are overused. For a perfect example, take a look at IWAY. Its been overused for months, but arenanet has not yet done anything to distinctly nerf them.

Actually it did get nerfed....twice. Once was when they changed the attack cap to 33%. Then after a while they hit it again nerfing Evercerate, OoV, MoR, Dust Trap, IWAY, and some other skills. What did this do... simple some people moved on to other build or left HA. However dedicated IWAY fans evolved and changed the build making the build stay alive. They used new factions skills (like OoA) too.

Glasswalker · Aug 08, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Well we have different opinions as to what is a failed concept. I find the Ritualist as a Jack of All trades class, as they can fit any role needed when nothing else fits the bill. As for the assassin, I use it for PvE and found it to be a better class suited for Prophecies then Factions. Don’t get me wrong it’s a great class. It just can’t deal with the Death Nova effects well. I find both the RIT and SIN as successful classes for thier roles.

I agree more with this than with Thom, definitely. Neither one fails for me. Neither one is a noob class though, those that jump in with no idea how to play it will fail, but DAMN, both fit well into a good group when they know what they are doing. I've heard way too much of the 'worthless class' nonsense over the last year and a half. I've walked away from the forums here at least 3 times, and I've built characters specifically to prove people wrong (but only when the claims aren't entirely baseless). Ensign and a few others (maybe you as well, Thom) will remember when no one would take a Warrior in a PvE group because Elementalists and Necros made them worthless. Then there was bull about Rangers and Mesmers being useless.

I think if anything, the new classes will show how useful Sins and Rits are. I've been messing around with a couple of new builds that just happen to be Dervish killers, but are effective against many classes. Both happen to be /Ri. So go figure.

P.S. Guardian, you will win. What will you do with your new-found wealth?

Thom · Aug 08, 2006, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Please reread the statements:
Ritualists are largely a failed class concept from a PvP perspective. Basic evidence to this fact is that there is only one serious PvP build. Channelling is rarely used my anyone and restoration is a poor alternative to a monk. Further more, while Booners come in 20 different flavors, there isn't that much flexibility with a ritualist spirit spammer since some spirits are just superior. While skills look like they should synergize nicely, efficient cast ranges and cast times largely prevent both spirit spamming and channeling/restoration. Elementalists are arguably see the least variety of core classes in PvP, but they have more reasonable options than ritualist. It is hard to argue that the hybridization was successful in ritualists.

I also noted that a ritualist can be fun to play. It is a fun Johnny class, allowing for creativity and a unique flavor of guild wars. I'm a bit of a Johnny, so I appreciate the concept. That said, if your concept doesn't scale up to higher levels of play it isn't worth pursuing.

The assassin issue is basically the opposite and more straightforward. While assassin skills and tactics remain interesting near the top of the ladder, they are just miserable in the hands of newbies. If people are getting turned off to the game because a class has a steep learning curve, I feel that the execution has failed to some degree. [Assassin are also less flexible skill wise than core classes, but they seem to have more playable skills and tactical flexiblity]

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 15, 2006, 08:53 AM // 08:53

This thread has gone from whether the sin and rit will have new skills/armor etc...... to another "why I love/hate the sin and rit" thread.

Back on topic:

All signs are pointing toward no new class specific content for the two factions professions (not entirely officially confirmed), but you will of course be able to take them over to Elona if you feel like it.

Lawnmower · Aug 15, 2006, 09:12 AM // 09:12

I honestly I would not expect them to do it(add Ritt and Ass content to Nightfall)!

But on the other hand you have to think about it in the larger picture... there are already so much more variations you can get out of core proffesions.

maybe they should make some sort of specific content updates... so maybe factions could get an update similiar to GW did with Sorrows Furrance...

some sort of update where they could add tons of new assassin and ritualist specific items, weapons, skills and armors!??

Tetris L · Aug 15, 2006, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

They said from the very beginning of Factions that this is how it would be. You can't be too disappointed with them.

Infact, they didn't say it. They still haven't said it 100% clear, even today, so how could they have said it back then?

I know that as soon as they say 100% clear that non-core professions will not receive at least a handful of additional skills and maybe at least one new armor I'll stop developing my Ritualist immediately, and probably I won't start any primary Dervish or Paragon in Nightfall.

gene terrodon · Aug 15, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

I fully expect to see content for all of the previous classes, just like in Factions.

There will be the new Elonian armor and Elonian weapons.

There of course be the core skills and a handfull of Nightfall skills and a few duplicated/renamed skills just like they did in Factions.

I see a pattern, as Anet has said all along that each chapter is a standalone, they have to have content for all of the classes for those who may not own the previous two chapters. Yet, they will limit the content to make people compelled to go buy the first two chapters.

Lawnmower · Aug 15, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tetris L

I know that as soon as they say 100% clear that non-core professions will not receive at least a handful of additional skills and maybe at least one new armor I'll stop developing my Ritualist immediately, and probably I won't start any primary Dervish or Paragon in Nightfall.

good for you chap!

Now delete your Ritualist, and go make another Wammo!!!

Azaril000 · Aug 15, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Reading this makes me wonder if Arenanet only makes new skills for core classes for all its chapters, when it will typically run out of idea's and start repeating skills over and over. Theres only so much skills you can give to one class, before alot of the stuff becomes completely irrelevant, or just plain old repeating itself.

Maybe they should focus on core classes for 1 or 2 chapters, then go back to flavour classes and make new skills for them for a chapter or 2. This way, guildwars might have a more prolonged "original" life, where you they can shift inbetween core and flavour classes.

Disappointed how they are taking guildwars (core classes get the goodies, while flavours get left in the dust), but what can ya do? They should not just bring up new classes and then not support them at all, in the short run, sure its fun for the current chapter, but realistically in the long run i wouldnt play a flavour class past its chapter, or probably 2 chapters later. So heres hoping A-net does the wise thing and keep 2 cycles, one for core class updates, and one for flavour class updates, from chapter to chapter.

Knightsaber Sith · Aug 15, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

If you watch the Nightfall trailer they released; you see Emperor Kisu of Cantha in the corner. A hint at sin/rit content?